135. How to Make An Impact with Your Life | Chris Bruno

Chris Bruno is the Co-Founder and CEO of Restoration Project and Founder and CEO of ReStory®Counseling, devoting his life to helping people come alive. He is the author of Sage: A Man's Guide Into His Second Passage, Man Maker Project: A Father's Guide to Initiating His Son to Manhood and Brotherhood Primer: A Journey Into Genuine Masculine Friendships, and a licensed professional counselor. He has decades of experience helping men recover their hearts. After graduating from Northwestern University in 1995 with both a Bachelor's in Communication and a Master’s in Speech, he and his wife spent close to ten years as missionaries in the Middle East. Upon returning to the U.S., he completed a Master's in Counseling Psychology at The Seattle School of Theology and Psychology, while also serving on staff at the seminary alongside Dan Allender as a facilitator and curator of restorative experiences.

Now living in Colorado, Chris leads two teams of story-sherpas: at Restoration Project, developing experiences and resources designed to "contend for men to reclaim who they are" specifically in the realms of fatherhood, brotherhood, and sonship; and at ReStory® Counseling with a story-informed team of therapists, spiritual directors, and Storywork counselors. Chris also offers ReStory® Intensives, 3-5 day experiences for individuals, couples, and groups. Married for 27 years to his wife, Beth, they have three mostly adult children and enjoy adventures in the Colorado mountains or overseas whenever possible. He loves Jeeps, streams, whiskey, Scotland,
and everything Celtic.

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Transcript

Cartwright Morris: 0:02

All right, welcome into the men are forged podcast. I've got Chris Bruno, I said that right, right, Chris. Yes. Chris Bruno, I'm excited to have you in today. He's the author of the book, sage, A Man's Guide into his second passage, which Chris was just telling me off camera really or off the recording, that he started thinking that it's at 16 and 18 years old. So, you know, if those of you young men out there are thinking about that second half of your life, and what kind of legacy you want to leave, like, now's the time. And so this is a lot of my stuff, that it's about men are forged, we have to be intentional, and are allowing God allowing life to forge us into who we are so excited jump in your story, Chris, my first question is, I'm really fascinated, just seeing from your bio, that you spent 10 years of your life in the Middle East. A lot of my listeners, you know, it's all about getting the getting the degree getting the bank, big job making the money he's getting on a career path. But I mean, you got the degree and a master's from Northwestern, and you said, I'm going to the Middle East as a missionary. So I'd love to hear how that came about and what your experience was like.

Unknown: 1:15

Yeah, well, great. Thanks so much for having me on the show. It's great to be here with you today. So that all really kind of started, I did graduate with a master's from Northwestern, and had just gotten married. So wife is a year younger than I am. So I was done with school, she was still in school. And so for the for that last year, I got a job in corporate America at the Campbell Soup Company. And so real corporate, real corporate, right. And it was, it was always my father's dream for me that I would have some kind of corporate job, some kind of, you know, high powered job or whatever. I wouldn't say that when I first graduated college, it was a high powered job. But I was I could have been on that, on that direction, in that direction. So when, when she finished school, she became a social worker in the inner city of Chicago. So I was in corporate America, and she was in inner city. And so the two of us were like, in very, very different spaces. And we lived in work there for a couple of years. And we just knew that there was something more for both of us, but we weren't sure what it was. And one of the things that God did bring into our lives was, there was a man that was hired at her work, who was a convert Southern Baptist convert to Islam. And it was her job, just as part of the job to teach them the ropes kind of take him around and kind of help him onboard him into becoming a social worker and his city. And so as they were driving around, they talked about a whole bunch of things. And Islam started to be something that had never before shown up on our radar, but now all of a sudden, it's literally in the passenger seat of her car. And so she would come home, talking to you know, and we would kind of digest it and, and think through it and pray through it and learn about it. And we finally decided, hey, this is something that we're pretty passionate about and kind of felt, gotta tap us on the shoulder and say, Hey, I'd like you to believe move into a direction of working in Middle Eastern cultures and places and so, so we quit our jobs. And we left, we literally went from Chicago over to the Middle East and spent the next decade over there. So that was it was there's a whole bunch of story that I could get into there. But that's how it came about.

Cartwright Morris: 3:42

That's man, that's powerful. And it's funny how, like, just our stories that happens in that, that willingness to like, you know, many are called few are chosen. And just stepping past that fear the unknown. Going in, because I mean, it sounds like y'all didn't know much about the Middle East or Islam, you know, making that decision.

Unknown: 4:01

We didn't. But here's the thing Cartwright is that when we think about fear, that we don't, I didn't know anything about corporate America, either, right? And so every next day, we can either engage from a posture of fear, or a posture of curiosity about Yeah, and so if I were to go back to that job, and you know, kind of try to climb the corporate ladder, there were things that were possible. And there were things that were, you know, people were getting laid off. And so I never knew what was going to happen there. Same thing, we have this mindset that moving your family overseas to the Middle East is is you could engage that and a level of fear, or come at it from Curiosity, the same kind of curiosity that I would get in my car and drive the hour across Chicago to go to the corporate offices. So there's a little bit of a shift. I think each of us when we engage our lives, will we have a posture of fear or a posture of curiosity.

Cartwright Morris: 4:59

So All right. This is the this is I mean, Chris is what I do on my podcast, sometimes my cure speaking curiosity, I just want to let it today. So, you know, hitting a little pause on your story, I am really just that mindset as a man in his 20s You're right. There's so much unknown, there's so much we we know that we don't know, right? How, yeah, for the men, the men in their 20s out there that are, there is so much fear influence in their decisions. You know, what, what did you do? Whether it is in corporate America, or it is going in the mission field in the Middle East? You know, how can we begin to address those fears? Wow, that's

Unknown: 5:41

a big question. Yeah, there's kind of two directions, I would go in that. And we can talk about both or one of them, I'll start with this, I think it's really important for us as men and women to but since we're kind of talking about men here, for us, as men to have a sense of the overall masculine journey, and then where we are in the midst of it, and to fully allow ourselves to be there, but not without a mindset of where we're headed. Right. Okay. So, in, in the sage book that you mentioned, I talk about a six seasons of a man's life and some really important things for us to identify and engage and, and participate in in each of those seasons. But also know that there is another next season that we all are kind of designed to move into. So if you're in, you know, your 20s That is a season that is really designed to be exploratory and adventurous, and I talk about it, being kind of this warrior phase of your life, you're going to kind of fight the battles, conquer the hills, you know, build the build the career, whatever it is, there's some energy there that you are actually intended to have, and engage with, that you didn't have when you were 15. And you won't have you know, when you're 45. So there's something there for you to really fully live into and engage. But not to forget that there is a next season after that. And one after that, and one after that. Yeah, love. I feel like you have to actually know like where you are in order to know where you're going.

Cartwright Morris: 7:16

Yes. Know where you are for, you know, you're going oh, man, that's interesting. Because I think there's a thought you said something that really triggered a thought. And I think I lost it. But But yeah, I think is oh, man, that's gonna bother me now. But anyway, let's, uh, let's go to your your back to your story. I am really curious. Just about the time in the Middle East. Where were you in there?

Unknown: 7:47

We were in Turkey. Turkey. Okay, it's stumble?

Cartwright Morris: 7:51

Yeah. And what was kind of your assignment daily life. Like, there,

Unknown: 7:57

we well, because we were mostly undercover. I'm not gonna say who we were with what organization we were with. But our the focus of our job was to partner with the very, very small local church that was there and do some work specifically aimed at the younger generation. So probably that 20, that 16 to 22 age range was really what we were aiming towards. And that was, you know, some high schoolers, some prep schoolers, and then also, some, some people in their, you know, university age. So that was our focus. While daily life was spent a lot of prayer, a lot of travel across the city, it is a mega city, it's like 1718 19 million people that live in Istanbul. So it was it was a lot. And there were, you know, millions of people that kind of fit that, that demographic that we were aiming towards. So we would talk about Jesus, we would partner with the church, we would do programs and stuff like that. So in the midst of all that we had a family, right, we had right, with a one year old, we had two other kids in the process of being there. And so that also consumed a lot of our daily life.

Cartwright Morris: 9:13

Yeah. But I mean, your seems like it was there was something really meaningful and impactful if you spent almost 10 years. Yeah, yeah.

Unknown: 9:23

Well, it certainly was it felt to us, like really strategic investments to us that we had learned the language enough to be able to speak and preach and do those kinds of things in the language. And so therefore, it felt like really, really important and strategic for us. If we're going to reach this country. We're going to reach the younger generation. And so that felt felt really important. Wow.

Cartwright Morris: 9:47

And in Istanbul, they speak Arabic or do they speak in

Unknown: 9:51

Turkish? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, it's its own language. Oh, wow.

Cartwright Morris: 9:55

You still do you still have a lot of the

Unknown: 9:57

words in there, right. It's been fun. 15 or so 16 years since I lived there. So it's been it's been a it's been a few minutes. So I do have some words, my wife and I still speak to each other in Turkish, just to try to keep it alive. Yeah, gotcha. Because it

Cartwright Morris: 10:14

is, I mean, it's amazing how your brain can absorb it, and it becomes second nature. And then when you don't use it, it leaves it. That's yeah,

Unknown: 10:21

well, and I had back to my 16 year old self when I was 16. I went on a student exchange to Germany, and spent a year there in Germany as a junior in school. And so I learned German I lived with the German family went to German high school, like all those kinds of things. And so I learned German pretty fluently. And the minute I started to learn Turkish, it was like a USB port, like, unplug German and put in Turkish, I completely forgot all of German.

Cartwright Morris: 10:48

Oh, wow. And then there's people out there that know, like five or six languages at once, and you're like, who

Unknown: 10:54

are you? They are far more brilliant. It really has

Cartwright Morris: 10:57

to be like the grace of God or something like gifting. So Chris, you come back to the States, I mean, with your young family and loved to know, you know, what, what made you say your time was done there in Turkey? And really what made you step into counseling and really want to impact people through that.

Unknown: 11:20

So a couple things happened, correct. First, it was not an easy place to live. And so there was over the course of time there, I would say there was kind of a arise in what felt like a, you know, influence and impact and all those kinds of things. But as I was in my warrior stage of life, and this was, you know, going in this ministry was kind of my battle to fight. Right. As I moved further and further into leadership positions, and was there the longer I was there, the thinner it felt I got, and just my soul got and so the battle, you know, I took some hits. There were some betrayals, there were some things that happened in my spiritual life, I struggled with depression, I, you know, that was just there were so many things, we had some pretty significant persecution, we were there, you were there during the 911. And then the subsequent Iraq, like all of that was happening. So it was it was really a kind of a pressure cooker space for us to be in. And so I felt myself really getting, like I said, not physically thinner, that would have been great, but, but emotionally and mentally and spiritually thinner. So it just came to a time when it felt like, okay, in order for us to actually be well, we're going to need to make a shift. And in that time came as, as our youngest was born, we were like, Okay, after she's born, then we're going to, we're going to come back, it took a year to make the transition of leadership and, you know, all those kinds of things. And then we headed back to the States without really a full plan, other than we knew we didn't want to just land with nothing, we wanted to have some kind of place to, to land. And so that's where we landed in Seattle, in seminary, for me to go get what good missionaries do as you go get a master's in divinity and you become a pastor. That's what kind of the career path of missionaries is. Yeah, we we did that we planned on going back to seminary to get an M div. But the program that I went to the MD of program, and the masters in counseling program overlap their first year, which was brilliant. And so at that point, I was like, Oh, the things that I'm learning in the counseling space are actually more more in my wheelhouse than imagining myself becoming a theologian or becoming somebody who's in preaching every week and leading a congregation. So I shifted over to the counseling psychology program at that point. And then the other brilliant thing was that I was a they, they offered me a job at the school. So nice. So I joined the staff of the school finished my program got to have a lot of other engagements around around the school than just a typical student might have.

Cartwright Morris: 14:47

Yeah. And so counseling what what makes you the, I mean, the cycle analyzation understanding your story. I mean, that's a lot of what you're doing now. Well, what was kind of the entry point of like, wow, this is life changing, not only for me personally, but to give it back to others.

Unknown: 15:02

Yeah. While I was overseas, we I was I became what I didn't start this way. But I became the leader of the specific department of our ministry. And we received several guys that were coming over men and women both. I was in charge of kind of growing and working with the men. The women on the team were in charge of the women. And so we were, I had all these young adults, these people had just graduated from college and they were coming over for a year or two or three, and they were on my team and I found in my own self, my own journey, as well as in them, all of us. felt like, hey, there's something up with our masculine selves, there's something up with who we are, who we are, there's something unfinished in becoming a man. And those guys were asking me, you know, someone just 3456 years older than them to Father them in some ways that I have not been fathered. And so I did a lot of work while I was overseas, but then also the counseling space in school offered me the opportunity to do a lot more of my own work, right, in the process of getting the counseling degree, not every counseling degree does that a lot of it is like academic and I thought this, this program was very much focused on your own self. And so I did that while I was in the program. And then in the program, because of my past experience with all these young men, I just had a heart for men, I was just like, Oh, if we can, if we can help this generation of men know who they are, know who God designed them to be and who they are, you know, supposed to be becoming that, that felt like a huge burden and call both personal, and then for others. And so I hijacked every one of my assignments from my professor and said, Hey, if, if I'm in this human growth and development class, can I focus on boys becoming men? If this is a human sexuality class, can I focus on male sexuality and husbands in the marriage and family class, like all that kind of stuff, I'm really focused in on working with men so that I could step into the next season of my life to really retool and retrain for where God was calling me next.

Cartwright Morris: 17:15

Yeah. So that's you, you made me remember my question from earlier. And just the really, for men to take that journey, that rite of passage, like, and I think it's all so passive. And a lot of it is we're craving permission. Yeah, to go do it. And like you said, you I mean, you weren't farther than that way. So how did you start really giving yourself permission? And how do you feel like, for as young men, how can we start really finding fathers to give us permission to go, that warrior lifestyle to go coat test to go be curious to live a life that's not cookie cutter to what we think is looks like success?

Unknown: 17:57

Well, so I have a previous book, it's called The Man Maker project. Ah, this book is all about that rites of passage journey, where it's designed for a father to read in order to grow his boy from boy into man, so that we have kind of a modern day rites of passage. But also, a lot of men have read it and go like, Oh, I never got this. I don't have a son, or I don't have a son yet. But there's some principles in there about what does it mean to be a man and to grow into the man that we can kind of sit with in development and such? So a couple of things I'll say to that first is back to a point I made earlier, in order to know where you're headed, you need to know where you are. Yeah. And I think it's really important for all of us to identify, Hey, what did I have? What, what did I not have? And what am I going to do with the gap in between? Because no one else is going to do that work for you if you weren't fathered likelihood right now is that you won't be fathered unless you take some initiative for yourself. You take the intentional, like, there's something inside of me that needs tending. There's something inside of me that needs to be cared for. And I will go find those kinds of people and the beautiful thing. All right, is that we don't actually need old only older men in our lives to Father us. Yeah. Any man can father, man. Right? Yeah. That it is it is the brotherhood of men. That is actually part of the the shaping of who we are. And another book that I'm just about to release is called brotherhood, it's all about that sense of the masculine friendships and who we are with one another. So for that man who's listening who's going, hey, you know, I didn't, I wasn't fathered. I don't I didn't have that rites of passage. I want to say it's not too late. More that in you, it's not too late for that work to happen and take the initiative to go find other men who can speak into those places for you. Yeah. And do some research of like, what wasn't bothered what what is your story? Where do you have moments? Where do you have lack, and then move towards healing in those areas?

Cartwright Morris: 20:13

Yeah. So it sounds like when you wrote this book, I mean, the sage has in a second. There. Was there in a lot of your research, a lot of your counseling, did you find that it's there's a certain when you said, define where you are? Yeah. Did you find there were certain things that men in their 40s and 50s had not gotten in their 30s and 20s. They were lacking? Was there a theme?

Unknown: 20:38

Oh, yeah, for sure. So the the The catchphrase that I'll say here, just because I think it answers your question in some way, is that that I talked about there's two passages in a man's life when a boy becomes a man. Yeah, when a man becomes a sage. Ah, so that's why the book is called The second passage, the sage, a guy, a man's guide into his second passage, because the first passage is that becoming a man. So the the catchphrase is this, the task of the first passage, is to find the man within the boy and call him forth. The task of the second passage, is to find the boy within the man and bring him home. Yeah. So there is something when I see these guys in their 30s 40s and 50s, as they're kind of coming in closer and closer to that second part of their lives, there's a lot of unfinished business, in in the boy within that man that doesn't feel like he is safe to be home with himself, like just be friends with himself does he likens? Does he have a lot of contempt for himself interesting, have a lot of like parts of himself that are kind of broken off and, and denied as he disgusted with his sexuality Is he is he ashamed of his sin? Is there a level of contempt that he has for what he has not done with his life. And so I feel like we enter into these 30s 40s and 50s and going like, Oh, crap, like, Here I am, half of my life is over. And all of the things that I have used in my life to survive thus far, are not actually bringing me the kind of life that I had hoped for, or that I wanted, or maybe they're, their survival techniques are not working anymore. This is what happened for me in Turkey was, I came to the end of myself in a way, the parts of me that kind of got me over there and the conqueror of those big hills and the warrior stage like those parts of me, as I as I entered into being a wounded man, which is another stage after the warrior comes the wounded man. Yeah, but I didn't engage that well, then I knew that I was going to either be stuck in a warrior or just kind of fall off into oblivion. And just kind of live a life of meaningless desperation, as Thoreau talks about. So that's where I felt like I needed to engage those things. Wow.

Cartwright Morris: 23:05

So this is when you say a boy becoming a man. So this is what's interesting, as most of us would go, I feel like I've got an idea what that is. How would Chris How would you define? Because right now we live in a culture, right? Get the definition is kind of reactionary, or it's binary, and thought, how would you describe what it looks like for a boy to become a man?

Unknown: 23:30

So there's both a moment and a journey. Okay, so the moment when a boy becomes a man is when the company of other men bestow that, that name over him? You are now one of us. Right? Right. You are now a man. And even if you are 1314 years old, and obviously you haven't, you know, don't have a job, you don't have a responsibility, you're just barely going through puberty, like all that kind of stuff. That doesn't matter. Being a man is not something only biological it is something characterological. So character of a man is bestowed by other men, to the boy to invite him into the company of men. So there is a moment. Now if that moment didn't happen, and I think a lot of our minds are like, hey, when, you know, if I asked that question, what did you become a man, a lot of guys would say, Well, when I got my driver's license, or when I had sex for the first time, and when I got drunk, or when I graduated high school, or whatever it was, like there's some kind of, they go back in there, like they know, they know. And we know intrinsically that it is a moment. And sometimes we don't know where to pick that moment. What was the moment and maybe we didn't have it and so we're looking for some other moment, right, but then becoming a man is sitting down, and I and I put it that way, just kind of sitting down like it wouldn't a chair or a big Lazy Boy chair kind of thing, sitting down into the character of what it means to be a man who holds and this is what I talk about in in the man Maker project who holds certain character qualities of honesty and integrity and a sense of like having a goodness x i call it excellent action. I'm gonna bring excellence to the world. There's a different character qualities like, Oh, that guy is a man. Those are the things that kind of break down and make a project so that we have a sense of what they are. When we sit down and those character qualities that's that's really when we become an I don't want to say become a man because I'm still becoming a man. Yeah, right. I'm still becoming a man. And so are you and all of us are and it's just like, the more that we grow into those places. It's Like, when does a tree become a tree? Yeah, when does it go from sapling to a tree, there's a certain kind of stage, but then from there, there on it is still a tree however big it gets. And the same for us as men is that we continue to grow into our tree nests, if you will, are better throughout throughout life. Parents are logically now physically, responsibility wise relationally, all those kinds of things those may be added on over the course of time as you develop a lifelong relationship or you, you know, kind of take your first hill and get a career and develop a domain and all those kinds of things, those, those may be part of that journey. But really, it is the internal world that determines whether a person is a man because I know a lot of I know a lot of people who are old and gray like me who are still boys.

Cartwright Morris: 26:35

Yes, there's a lot of 50 year old men. Okay, that act like kids walking around. Yeah. 100%

Unknown: 26:42

Yeah, and I'm not talking about act like kids, like they'll, you know, jump off a rock into a lake, like act like kids, but there's something character logically immature inside them that hasn't matured. And I think it's those men who are intentional, who are not like they don't have the wisdom of all the things that they should know. But they have at least the wisdom to know they need to be on a journey. The kinds of men that grow the man inside of them so that they can bring the fullness of that to the world. Yes. I'm all about jumping off of cliffs into lakes. That's

Cartwright Morris: 27:15

yeah. 100% That's, that's being childlike, not childish. Right.

Unknown: 27:19

That's a great, great difference.

Cartwright Morris: 27:22

So, Chris, I mean, you got the man Maker project. I mean, you got your books that are they're talking a lot about this. How do we discover this masculine expression of God? How did we become more of a man? How, what of what in your journey, as you know, really creating a lot of this for other men? How have you seen this and really reflect in your own life as a dad? Yeah, I know, you have kids, you have sons?

Unknown: 27:50

I do. Yeah. It started, like I said, with me and my own life and my own story, kind of recognizing what I had and what I didn't have. I never had a rites of passage as a boy. There were a lot of things in my family of origin that actually prevented that from happening. And I have a, you know, my dad is still around, I have a relationship with my dad, but it's not well, and so it has never been part of my life and journey. So really, I decided, hey, what am I going to do for myself? And then how does that play out for other men? As I was kind of extricated myself from Turkey, and then settling into this, this space of the work I'm now doing, it came from me, but then also the man Maker project came from. I have at that point, I had a 12 year old son. And he was heading through the throes of puberty. And he was, you know, from the moment he was born. And the first moment that I held him, I was like, Oh, crap, what am I going to do? I know, the boy. I don't know how to be a man yet. How am I going to teach him how to be a man. And so really, through the next 12 years, it was like this journey of learning, so that I could arrive then at a point when he was 1213 years old to do some rites of passage stuff with him that just then became the book man Maker project. So that's where that came out of. Now. He's 23 years old, and off living on his own and doing all that. So some of it comes really from my own journey. I've always, always tried to live life out loud. And that's where man Maker project came from. That's where the Brotherhood material came from. Because I came back from being overseas and I had no one. I had no community, I had no friendships, I didn't even know how to actually be in honest and honouring relationships with other men. And so was through the journey of some relationships. I was like, Okay, this is what brotherhood seems to mean and and then now with sage as you're stepping, stepping into the next season of your life, the older season, there was, again, here I am, I am, you know, I'm 50 now and I am moving into the season of my life. So it's living life, Allah so all of it was really kind of just my own personal journey of recognizing, like, I don't know what to do here. So I better figure this out.

Cartwright Morris: 30:05

Right. And fit Yeah, I mean, to figure something out, that actually matters, like, affects another life beyond your own. It's just, I think most people don't get to that point that that point of desperation really like wow, my actions affect someone else.

Unknown: 30:22

I wrote the books for me and so if other people they find it helpful, that's great.

Cartwright Morris: 30:26

So good, good. So I recommend you checking out all those books, man, man Maker project, a father's guide to intention, initiating his son to manhood Wow, brotherhood primer, a journey into genuine masculine friendships. I kind of wanted to pivot that way. Yeah, really, because I think this is something that I've found, as you know, one, he's led groups that's eager to try to get men together on a regular basis system value that I've found in my own life of getting that rub. And being vulnerable with other men that like my lat know, the relationships that have lasted in my life are the ones where I could go on deep with, you know, and most men like a women are great at the face to face I always say that are good men were better at relationships that are shoulder to shoulder, like let's go play golf swats to game together. You know, Pat, how do you help? How do you encourage men to really go deeper in the relationship? And what's some of the ways that you know men like yourself that were kind of clueless? How do you engage in that those types of relationships.

Unknown: 31:32

So I would say this cut, right that I love how you just said that face to face versus shoulder to shoulder. In the ministry that I started for men restoration project, we talk about this, we talk about how experience leads to story. Yes, and story leads to blessing. Call it experience story blessing. A lot of us men know how to do experience really well, we'll go play golf or watch a game, we'll sit around a campfire, we'll do those kinds of experiences together. But we don't have the orientation to go from experience into story. A lot of times what we do is we go from experience into content. Right? Like, if you have a small group, you're like, hey, let's, let's go play golf. And then let's go home, and we're going to study a book and the book or you know, we're going to unpack Ephesians, or we're going to do like, you know, refer back to the sermon series or something, all that stuff is great as far as spiritual growth, but it doesn't actually create the context for masculine relationships, doesn't bring you into the story, the most important thing that we can do in our one on ones and in our small groups of men, is to not talk about content other than the content of our lives. Yeah, the most important content. So the experience should be leading into story. And the story is, who are you? One of the things I talk about in all the books is, you are more than you remember, you are. Yeah, that's okay. There is something much older than you of who you are. You were you were a thought in the mind of God long, long before you walked the planet. And so like that is the most true version of you. And I think a lot of men's groups, it's all about, you know, confession and accountability and all those kinds of things. That's part of it. But here's the thing, I think the true accountability that we should be having as men is not to keep you from your sin. But to remind you of your glory. us in the story is not, God's not worried about where you have failed. He's far more excited about who he made it to be. And so as we talk about story, that's the place that we invite men to go into. Yes. And then from there, now I have the opportunity to say, hey, here's my experience of you. Here's what I see in you. Here's what I can remember on your behalf that you don't remember about yourself, but But I saw this happen. When we were over there doing the experience. I saw how much courage you had, I saw how much goodness you brought. I saw how much leadership you brought that part right is who you are.

Cartwright Morris: 34:20

Yes, that

Unknown: 34:22

experience leading to story and then story leading to blessing is what I'm talking about. That's what you do in restoration project that's part of this shift of getting out of content focused, the most important thing that the most important text of any group should be the text of people's stories, not the text that is there on the table in between them,

Cartwright Morris: 34:46

man. And that's good. Yeah, that is, man, man. We love content we love we definitely like I've felt this is I think there is a hunger in the younger, my generation younger, it's like moving past the information part of it. And it's like, we need the foundation. We do need but it's like, like, we don't want to gather around content anymore. We've got plenty content. So much content. Yeah. How do we actually dive in and actually have the experience that's meaningful? And it really comes to, you know, I guess it's about you, how do I reflect on it well, and actually learn from it and apply it where it actually something changes in me. Yes, yeah.

Unknown: 35:36

Yeah, so things like go ahead and go golfing. Yeah, but But while you're golfing, asks story based questions of just some very simple. So what was golfing like for you as a boy? Mm hmm.

Cartwright Morris: 35:53

Yes.

Unknown: 35:54

Now we're starting to get into story. Okay, so you start telling me about your golfing story, I'll start telling you about how my father was an attorney in, in Denver, and he had, he went golfing often and we even had through through his law firm. He had a country club membership that he would then take people golfing on. Yeah, I was never invited. Okay, so now you have a sense of a little bit more of a window into my boyhood. So now you can ask some other questions of like, What did that feel like? What was that like for you? What other places where you're not invited into by your father? Yeah. And now we're in a completely different realm. And all of it is because we went golfing together. Okay, so that's the invitation and the story. Yeah. And that is a real grit of relationship. But it's

Cartwright Morris: 36:49

interesting, Chris, is I. So I'm guessing this is what you do at the restoration? Like, how, like, how do you train men to ask those questions, because most will not? Like I can. Sometimes when I do that on a golf course, or, you know, out with a group of guys, I don't know what I'm just like, I really want to know, like, why did you do that? Why did that happen in your life? And what did you What was your experience, and you could feel the squirm like that you could see them dodging and weaving emotionally

Unknown: 37:19

100% on a resume, because we don't, because we're not we don't know how to do that. We don't, we're not trained to do that. And that is, that is what we do in the Brotherhood, book material. We have brotherhood groups all over the country, where guys like you are saying, hey, we want to get together and have a different kind of group. And so the Brotherhood material actually leads you through and I say literally, in the book, the most important text right now is put this book down, it is not as important as what is happening between you. Yeah, so like, and then I give categories and the way that we talk about is just giving scaffolding, giving kind of like skeletal training around some of these things. And then have you just go and have you see what it feels like? And then come back and reflect on how was that? How was that for you? How did you compare yourself to the other men in the group? That's one of the reflection questions, right? Like, what did you think that how are you judging the other guy? Well, it's like, those kinds of things are what we're inviting men to do in the context of these kinds of groups. So there is a whole kind of journey that we'd guys on,

Cartwright Morris: 38:25

man, because it's such a need. Because, yeah, I mean, there's just too many times that you're just like, man, we don't even just don't even how to begin that conversation. Like I mean, one of my favorite comedians on YouTube, he did this whole joke where a wife comes home from a girls night versus when a guy comes home with a girls night, right? You know, the wife asked her what did you and Bobby talk about? I don't know. He was pretty funny. He just lost his job. What do you talk? I mean, typical, right? We just don't we get home from guys night. It's like, oh, we just hung out. Watch the game. Did whatever. Yeah, whatever. Yeah. And but there's such a need like as men, we need other men?

Unknown: 39:04

Well, it's not only a need Cartwright is a hunger that as we sit there, just watching the game, not having another deeper conversation, there is a hunger that we first need to identify. first need to identify, I actually want to need something more from this guy that I'm sitting next to watching the game, right? And not everybody that you watch a game with is going to be the kind of guy that can go there with you, right. But there's an we have a need for other men, and we have a hunger for other men, especially for men who have not been fathered. Well. We need other men to step into those roles. And unless we crossed that line, unless we take that risk unless we ask that question. It's not it just won't happen. Because I think part of us is just like this passive movement of like, okay, it was just a game, we just, we're not going to talk about deep things. But it just takes one person. It just takes one man to say, hey, tell me about your job. How are you?

Cartwright Morris: 40:00

Yeah. And to honestly ask that question. Yeah, like I really want to know,

Unknown: 40:06

and stay long enough for the answer. Hmm.

Cartwright Morris: 40:10

Yeah. And there's something to win there that you feel the awkwardness rise that I think most men it's like, how do I get around that? How do I get past that? So we want to either talk at it or we want to avoid it. And versus like you said that that ability just sit in it with him? Like is the world I mean, I'm for I would say if that's happened to me at my mid 20s, or it really felt like water in a desert?

Unknown: 40:37

Yes.

Cartwright Morris: 40:38

Yes. Like wow. Oh, you actually do want and actually how I'm doing? Yes, then and that's so powerful is that is that part of the training as well of just like learning that but of learning to just sit and listen?

Unknown: 40:51

Listen? Yes. getting attention, because nobody wants you to fix them. Because you can't, you can't actually fix anybody. Right? Probably the the most important kind of relational organ that God has given us. Is your ears, not your mouth. Yeah. Yeah. So that's supposed to sit long enough to listen to the answer.

Cartwright Morris: 41:13

Yeah. And, and that's a lot of what, you know, metaphors, I mean, I just the the embracing of discomfort and life and I think a lot of that has to do with just relationally. Yeah, you know, I think we do that men need to do that in their marriages, the the willingness just to when to step into it with our wives, lean into the uncomfortable.

Unknown: 41:35

And I love it, because I, I'll talk about this too, in groups of men, like, Hey, you get to practice here with the other guys, so that you actually get better at it here. Make all your mistakes in the context of men so that when you go home, you don't make a mistake with your wife. Yeah. So I grew up with a guy and he can tell you stop being an idiot. Like, don't ask that question. That's not the right question asked me this question. Yeah, let that happen in the context of the man so that when you go home, and you're with your kids and your wife and your co workers, and your community, like that's, it goes better there. So, right, practice,

Cartwright Morris: 42:10

man, so good. Just developing that compassion, empathy muscle? Yes. Man, that you're not the center of the universe. How about that? Let's start there. Chris, yeah. So there's so much I could, I want to ask you about off of this. But you know, one, we're kind of coming up on time. But I would love just to, you know, the one that I like to ask and you've kind of already answered it, but I would, you know, what would you tell your 25 year old self, if you could, right now.

Unknown: 42:44

If I were to tell my 25 year old self, something, I would say, calm down. Okay, calm down. The battle that you're in, is actually important. And it's not as important as you think. Okay, so calm down. I would also say, came back to where I kind of started, was, know where you are, and live fully into your 25 year old self that is awesome, and beautiful, and wonderful and God designed. And don't forget that there's more to come. This is not all of who you were ever meant to be. There is more to come. There are more seasons, there's more growth, there's more subtleness there's more. There's just more for you. And you don't have to make all that happen right now. So if you find yourself in places where I don't know what to do, that is not a failure. Yeah, that is actually a place for you get to go, I'm gonna grow into the next season of my life.

Cartwright Morris: 43:46

Yes. Yeah, man. So good. Chris, thank you for coming on. It was a blast talking to you. Sage, a men's guide into his second passage, I just want to make sure my listeners remember that. You know, Chris, there's other resources that, you know, my audience would love to know. So if you could Yeah, just kind of give a plug for for that and where people can find you if they want to contact you.

Unknown: 44:12

Sure. So any of the the first chapters of any of the books that I've mentioned today are all available for you to get for free to download. So just if you're curious, go to restoration project.net/first Chapter. And you can get the first chapter of sage, first chapter man maker first chapter of brotherhood. So all that is available for if you want to grab that. There's also I would love for guys to know about our men's experiences, where we take take men into the backcountry, we've got a float plane trip up to Canada. And so we're taking them into the back country men only where you're actually engaging some of the things that I've talked about here. Yeah. So week long experience that'll happen in the fall. We've got one in North Carolina on Appalachian Trail happening in May. So just things like that are happening. And then the Counseling Center is that restore dot life. And we've got a team across the country that can do virtual work with anybody and I do intensives and then we've got all kinds of things happening there. So that's where people can find us.

Cartwright Morris: 45:11

That's great. And so that's another little interesting as you meant we can still have the experience like we don't want to say anything you need to go in accounting office and sit on the couch and tell her story like go live go do but just along the way.

Unknown: 45:25

Oh, yeah. Oh, man. We didn't have time but like in the father space. I have father, daughter, Father Son experiences. We're doing a canoe trip. For boys, fathers and sons and fathers and daughters. I'm taking a group over to Kenya to do a whole farther and farther down our experience in Kenya we've got the men's only ones like all of that is right there on the experiences page of restoration project so check that out go live

Cartwright Morris: 45:53

well thank you Chris it was it was a pleasure to have you on and talking with you

Unknown: 45:56

absolutely so good to be here thanks Cartwright